Curse

Tyla · Jul 15, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

-No PvE skills
-A variant of builds being used.
-A New Challange

This is bad?

However, unless I missread:

I believe they should make numbers smaller and improve the capabilities of enemy skill use aswell. And at the same time, do the same with henchmen and AI in general.

/Signed.

PS: Please use polls!

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Theres no real challenge in an overpowered monster.

Id much prefer a monster on even skill-sets as me.

But even then it's not even, since you're going to be up against the idiocy of the AI. When you have to go against something "overpowered", you start to learn that what you've been running this whole time is not a good build but an acceptable one. The holes within it become more clear, you see where your strengths are lacking, and ultimately see what

So yes, Hard Mode is indeed challenging. It's just that we've surpassed it.

~~~

As to the suggestion itself, it'll be pretty tricky. If not implemented properly, this could be as challenging as the Kournans in NF: balanced but boring. And again there's the issue of the AI. But ultimately, it's the "build>skill" gameplay that exists within PvE. Whether or not this could change it would be unknown, but it'd be certain that heroes would be much less desired.

To those saying "programming nightmare": It's about the concept. Just assume that ANet can do anything to their game. "How well does this idea hold together?" is what you should be answering.

englitdaudelin · Jul 15, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

I'm a fan of a lot of these ideas... a hard mode that's gimmick-free? Sign me up.

The problem seems to start with the idea of a static build for mobs in areas. Would it be possible, instead of counter builds, and instead of overpowered boss bonus qualities...to have a possible rotating set of skill bars available to monsters in an area?

For instance, the Mandragor necros all carry a set skill bar in EotN. What if there were 5 skill bars coded--5 different skill bars: a hex-and-degen, like they currently have, an SS-Reckless Haste-Rigor Mortis group (Curse heavy?), a blood-magic heavy, and a condition-heavy bar?

So, when a character zones in, some device assigns (at random?) one of these skill bars to every possible mandragor necro in the area.

Combine this with varied bars for each of the class groups: the mandragor dervish: 5 possible bars. The mandragor warrior: 5 possible bars.

Keep these at 8 full-skill bars, with an elite skill...Now, the team would need to be prepared for an array of possibilities.

If it's possible to consider adding "synergy" in the monster builds, maybe randomness could go out the window: there could be a rotating set of team builds, well-synergized to cause multiple problems to the human team...and upon zoning, a team build would be assigned to each group spawn?

Perhaps the other thing missing from HM...8-person, or 8-creature, teams. Isn't that a HUGE chunk of what made both normal and HM so ... stale? The knowledge that you needed a full 8-person team at only one point in a given map...and the rest of the time, you faced mobs of 5-6?
I found the thought of facing level 28 monsters less daunting, when I learned...there weren't MORE of them. Groups of 8 would preclude the kind of 2-on-1 tactics that pop up sometimes in PvE play--sending 2 people to zap a monk would suddenly leave another critter uncovered.

komma · Jul 15, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Or they could just tweak monster builds and bump up thier levels again, that would prolly be x-treme enough.....the counter idea would be fail, higher level monsters that have auto adjusted skill bars to counter the party would be A.I. pwnage even if they werent "perfect" counters. I like the idea of another difficulty now since hm seems like nm, and nm a seems like a strole in nolani.

lyra_song · Jul 15, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by englitdaudelin

I'm a fan of a lot of these ideas... a hard mode that's gimmick-free? Sign me up.

The problem seems to start with the idea of a static build for mobs in areas. Would it be possible, instead of counter builds, and instead of overpowered boss bonus qualities...to have a possible rotating set of skill bars available to monsters in an area?

For instance, the Mandragor necros all carry a set skill bar in EotN. What if there were 5 skill bars coded--5 different skill bars: a hex-and-degen, like they currently have, an SS-Reckless Haste-Rigor Mortis group (Curse heavy?), a blood-magic heavy, and a condition-heavy bar?

So, when a character zones in, some device assigns (at random?) one of these skill bars to every possible mandragor necro in the area.

Combine this with varied bars for each of the class groups: the mandragor dervish: 5 possible bars. The mandragor warrior: 5 possible bars.

Keep these at 8 full-skill bars, with an elite skill...Now, the team would need to be prepared for an array of possibilities.

If it's possible to consider adding "synergy" in the monster builds, maybe randomness could go out the window: there could be a rotating set of team builds, well-synergized to cause multiple problems to the human team...and upon zoning, a team build would be assigned to each group spawn?

Perhaps the other thing missing from HM...8-person, or 8-creature, teams. Isn't that a HUGE chunk of what made both normal and HM so ... stale? The knowledge that you needed a full 8-person team at only one point in a given map...and the rest of the time, you faced mobs of 5-6?
I found the thought of facing level 28 monsters less daunting, when I learned...there weren't MORE of them. Groups of 8 would preclude the kind of 2-on-1 tactics that pop up sometimes in PvE play--sending 2 people to zap a monk would suddenly leave another critter uncovered.

One of my older ideas was exactly like that actually.

This is a more complicated version essentially.

Tyla · Jul 15, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by komma

bump up thier levels again

No. Higher numbers =/= higher difficulty.

Alex the Great · Jul 15, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

just keep the monsters on the same level as in Hard mode, and give them skill bars with synergy. Bars that you would see in a GvG or HA match.

kind of like the Charr Rspike, but better (seriously they use the wrong elite and prep)

the skills of the monsters dont need to change to counter you, just make them pvp quallity bars

komma · Jul 15, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

No. Higher numbers =/= higher difficulty.

D'uh thats what this thread is about, Extreme Mode, not slightly better builds on the monsters.

Tyla · Jul 15, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Read the part I quoted. You suggested bumping their levels up.

Don Doggy · Jul 15, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Good idea but I highly doubt it will happen.

rick1027 · Jul 15, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

only problem is people are gonna complain the new extreme mode is too hard they cant do it. and anet wants all areas to be at least doable for all

komma · Jul 15, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Read the part I quoted. You suggested bumping their levels up.

yea exactly...only by a few since skill effects get stronger exponentially at that level.

Solas · Jul 15, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

This is bad?

...Did I say it was bad?
No i said it sounded like PvP

The Meth · Jul 15, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

You want enemies to all have good balanced skill bars and to use them intelligently? We have that mode already, its called PvP.

Actually, nvm, PvP has none of that anymore.

It's an ok idea, but I think it would be too hard to implement, too exploitable (think of the doppleganger), and too much of a pve style meta game. Either the builds are going to be nigh perfect counters to your build (think the worst kind of PvP metagaming builds + double damage/recharge/casting) or we would end up with every enemy in the game using almost exactly the same build.

I think any development time that just happens to be lying around would be put to better use just making enemies smarter then dogshit. Not to mention even if the enemies were perfect counter builds, I bet I (or at least someone else) could come up with a tank'n'spank build that relies on things that are completely uncounterable by pve enemies until we get an AI update that allows them to chose targets intelligently instead of going for either the nearest or training the monk. Shouts, weapon spells, and buffs without types could easily be an uncounterable wall, even without pve skills.

I think a more limited approach would be better, lets say all high end mobs get 1-3 wildcard skills on their bar that can be randomized between a number of different possibilites, but the 'core' 4-5 skills all remain the same. Gives every different mob a bit of originality, helps force people to be more reactionary instead of cookie cutter, and avoids some of the nasty possibilities that I outlined above. But above all else, we need better AI first. This is for all modes, not just this new uber mode, normal and hard mode desperately need these changes to make battles more unique. They also need the no pve skills/consumables changes, but lets not drag that discussion into this thread

.

Tyla · Jul 15, 2008, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed

...Did I say it was bad?
No i said it sounded like PvP

Then why state that? Isn't it obvious that it would be like that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by komma

yea exactly...only by a few since skill effects get stronger exponentially at that level.

That's still higher numbers. Making enemies smarter instead of stronger is the way to go. Maybe except for those few places in hard mode *cough* Old Ascalon *cough* which could have buffed enemies to a certain extent.

pamelf · Jul 15, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

You need to stop thinking inside the box.

The monster counters are intended to be "impossible" but beatable. You just have to know your own weaknesses and be prepared for it. Obviously tweaking and balancing would be needed but it will still lean towards HARD.

The monster builds should be, imo, based on balanced builds, and skills will change slightly to counter teams which are heavier on certain types of skills.

As for coding wise...The game already knows which skills are enchantments, and which skills work vs enchantments and which wont. It already knows which classes have the lowest armor, and which classes have slow casting skills. How much of a stretch is it to say:

if team A has ___ enchantment, monster team B has ____ anti-enchantment.
if team A has 7 warriors, monster team B has Dervish with Ebon Dust AUra, Ele with Blinding surge, ranger with Dust Trap and Necro with spiteful spirit.

But by your logic the monster reads the skill bar and will be able to counter the counter...If you know your own weakness in this instance so does the monster AI, and thus they would always win...

/notsigned.

This idea is way too complicated, and I'd go so far as to say damn near IMPOSSIBLE to implement. I even think that it removes skill from the game. Having randomized skill sets means that you can never plan. Most of the skill in this game is being able to see what an enemy's strengths are and counter those. I agree that I'd like more of a challenge. Hard Mode is ok, but it's still just beefed up sameness, as the OP stated earlier. I don't think random skills is the answer though, because then you're running blind into every fight, and you'll just see a whole lot of cookie cutter, overpowered builds with the HOPE that an enemy doesn't have this, or that skill. I like creating my own builds to counter enemy skill bars specifically, and your idea would sort of negate that.

An earlier poster stated that effects of buffs would be the way to go and I'm inclined to agree.

Lishy · Jul 15, 2008, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Fail. The whole idea is like saying Sableye and Spiritomb from pokemon should have Wonder Guard.
If you did not understand the analogy, "Wonder Guard" in pokemon is an ability in which makes your pokemon only get hurt by attacks the type of its weakness. Sableye and Spiritomb have no weakness. Therefor creating an impossible-to-counter situation.

Unless you're too stupid to use common sense, RPG's is all about countering your enemy's strategy. Like a game of chess.
In this case, PvE is about countering the setup for all the enemies formations and obstacles.
If you were to take that away the countering for enemy mobs, it'd be like forcing you to play a flare elementalist up against a full team of mesmer and necromancer. Besides. Anet would not want to spend the money or time on this when they could be working on GW2!

/NotSigned&Failure

Good job.

Stockholm · Jul 16, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Random composition of the groups that spawn, that should not be to hard to implement and would give you enough of a challange.

Duncan Idaho · Jul 16, 2008, 12:13 AM // 00:13

More Ursans ...

/notsigned unless Ursan is nerfed

Bryant Again · Jul 16, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

An earlier poster stated that effects of buffs would be the way to go and I'm inclined to agree.

I too am going to have to be more in agreement with Mithran's ideas. As "lame" as it may sound, providing more roadblocks does encourage you to think of more in-depth and broader builds. Simple, but challenging.